Welcome to the Scrum.org Community Podcast, a podcast from the Home of Scrum. In this podcast we feature Professional Scrum Trainers and other Scrum practitioners sharing their stories and experiences to help learn from the experience of others. We hope you enjoy this episode.

Dave West  0:20  
Hello, and welcome to the Scrum.org Community Podcast. I'm your host, Dave West and also the CEO here at Scrum.org. We're very fortunate to have a very interesting Professional Scrum Trainer on today's podcast. We're fortunate to have Fabio Panzavolta. Which I've been practicing his surname for days, and I'm not sure I got it right there. Welcome to the podcast, Fabio.

Fabio Panzavolta  0:45  
That's me, that's perfectly spelled.

Dave West  0:51  
Oh you're too kind, I think my ability to say your surname is not that great, but I do my best, which is what it's meant to say. So, Fabio, you are an Italian living in France, on this podcast in English. So it will be an interesting journey. I'd love to hear, you know, how you,  know your journey, how you got here, an introduction to yourself, help our listeners understand a little bit about who you are. And also, it would be great to hear something that's a little bit amusing or interesting or unique about you.

Fabio Panzavolta  1:35  
Yeah, sure. Dave. So I am almost 48 years old. And as you said, I'm living in Paris, France, and have to resume 20 years of experience a little bit more, I think 20-22 years of experience. So I will try to do my best. But I have on a personal side, I like to tell it a bit about my personal life. I have a son who is 13 years old, Luca who is playing basketball beautifully. And yeah, so that's, that's about my life. And I am absolutely passionate about Scrum agility. I'm practicing more or less than years of this 20 years of half of my professional experience. And so I am very fortunate because I do what I am passionate about. So I'm really not working. I am enjoying my every day of my life. So that's about me. And a fun fact about me. I don't know if it is fun, but I like a lot to ride bikes. So I have a motorbike. And I was enjoying doing track sessions with my bike. And now getting a little bit older. I think I have stopped citizens in Estonia. And  that's over. Yeah, so that's more or less all? I think.

Dave West  3:21  
So. I'd love to hear. I mean, I'd love to lean in a little bit about the bike thing. I'm always interested about motorbikes. But this isn't isn't the right place to talk about that. But I'm really interested in your Italian fab. Yeah, but you live in in one of my favorite cities in in all the world, Paris. What took you from, from Italy? To to the beautiful city of Paris, both amazing countries, by the way.

Fabio Panzavolta  3:49  
Yeah, that's quite something connected to Scrum actually. Because it's about adventure. I like not being in everyday the same thing. So since very young, I like to make adventures, which is what we do when we do Scrum in companies. So basically, I was saying to my parents, okay, bye bye. I'm going for one or two years abroad and making experience and then I will come back. But finally, I found a really nice job here in Paris. Through my university, and finally, because Paris is quite central in Europe. I've worked all around Europe and I've never felt that I needed to go back to Italy. I mean, to establish myself back to Italy. That's that's how I'm, you know, I'm here since 20 years. I'm regularly going back to Italy, but I'm based here in France and I love it. Yeah.

Dave West  4:55  
Do you think that having that sort of traveler diversity experience sort of view makes you a slightly better trainer because obviously the people that you train and the teams you know, Scrum Teams are ultimately the best Scrum Teams are diverse teams, diversity of experience of, you know, all life experience, and they bring that do you think that makes? Is that useful? Is your experience useful in that context?

Fabio Panzavolta  5:26  
Yeah, I'm used to since always to work in multicultural and you know, diverse environments. So I think I've developed a sensitivity that maybe is not, you know, you cannot develop if you always work with the same culture and the same people. So yeah, definitely, I think this, I'm fortunate as well to have, you know, what, I think with all people around the world, and it's something that really enjoy, it's something hard, because you need to always, you know, be caring to others. Yeah, the same is for my parents, because my parents have lived out, they live in Italy. And now they do not, they do not understand some certain things about myself. So I'm helping them understanding my life. And, you know, my thinking that is, you know, now Evolve is different. So yes, it's just time, definitely for training as well. Yeah.

Dave West  6:38  
I think that the trainers taught me the community has taught me about, one of our trainers calls it the platinum rule, which is not to do unto others, you do not want to be done onto yourself, but do unto others as they would like and need to be, you know, and I think that is a really interesting service in terms of servant leadership, a really interesting service that everybody can comply with. And you all taught me that. And hopefully, though, sometimes, my mouth gets in the way of it, I try to live that every day. So thank you for that. Very well. So let's move on to you know, you've been 20 doing this something years. Let's not go through the details of the how many years because it always makes you feel really old, right? But 20 something years, you've been in this industry, you've been doing, projects, programs, delivering value, you know, et cetera, tell me how you got to be this, this big choice to be a PST. Tell us a little bit about that journey? And why PST?

Fabio Panzavolta  7:52  
Yeah, you know, it could last two days, but I'm trying to absorb it. So first of all, I got started, I have a master's degree in computer science. And so I started to work as a software engineer. And for six years, I was asked to, you know, make code very fast. And I remember in the first years, I was making presentations from the management and saying, Well, I can do it fast, but I will create technical debt. So can we just pause a little bit and, you know, make some say I was making presentations about design patterns. So make code that is well done. And very often people will say to me, fabulous, a very good presentation, but we don't have time, so please go to work and do as fast as possible. And after six years of that, I was a little bit fed up. And I said, Okay, let me see if I go on the other side, so I manage people, let me see if I can do better. So in reality, I've never managed people because people are not manageable. And, and so I started to do a lot of project management. And, you know, discover how to deal with people, which is very different on how he deals with computer. So you need to develop your soft skills, you need to really understand all those, I learned about nonviolent communication. And in the same time, so I love to work with organizations. They were making a lot of pressure on myself to deliver on time on schedule and budget. And so I worked as a product manager and Product Manager for another, I don't know, six years. And for me, the main point was to have a motivated team to work together and to achieve results together. Hey, remember, I was making some guns and stuff. And I was really spending few times very little time because I knew that the day after everything was false. So I was really concentrating on having a group of people working together on the same direction. And we had great results in together on many different projects. But still, I wasn't satisfied. And I wasn't happy how, how, in the way of working, there was something that was not really convincing me. So I said, Okay, I need to find new ways to create common vision motivate people to work together. And I explore the graphic facilitation. So after project management, I was really studying a lot in graphic facilitation, how to facilitate groups. So I was going into this direction. And then I noticed that it was good, but not enough. So better than project management, but really not enough because facilitation only is not helping in achieving results. And then, in 2010, the Scrum Guide that was out, I read it, but I think I didn't understand it. Because I said, Oh, come on just a little book of 14 pages, how can you possibly work on and in a way I forgot it, and I was continuing working on my facilitation skills and setup. Then I had this opportunity with a client, they were looking for a project manager scrum master. And I jumped on the occasion. I tried again, the Scrum Guide, and I start making the product managers camtasia. So a lot of mistakes. And that's how I was I discovered condotto because I I always want to give to my clients the best. And I was starting to study in Professional Scrum and starting Professional Scrum. Is that okay, let's let's say the PSM one certification, and I got it, then I noticed that there was this Professional Scrum Trainer, you know, opportunity is coming to talk. And I just said, Okay,  I'm doing it. And I was thinking they will never have me. But you know, I didn't have any plan I just started. Yeah, and it took me almost two years to become a PST.

And that's how I became a PST, little by little without any particular plan.

Dave West  13:03  
So training is quite different from, you know, being a Scrum Master doing the work on on a team, though, obviously, you do teach as a Scrum Master, but it's a sort of a different vibe being a professional trainer. Was that a big jump? Or? Or did the facilitation sort of skills that you were very interested in? You know, is that was that helped you to move that direction?

Fabio Panzavolta  13:32  
Yeah, no, I'm good. Yeah, I'm quite comfortable with people. So I was comfortable in delivering the training, I wasn't comfortable in the beginning with the flow. So I was not happy with myself. Because when you deliver a training, it's a little bit like dancing in a group or, you know, playing in an orchestra. So my issue was really having the right flow, the right pace. Knowing very well the content of the training. Because the Scrum Master has the facilitation, the experience, this was something that I already had. And what really I appreciated during my PST journey is that and that's what else I tell to my students is that I'm not telling the only fabulous story, but I'm also telling the story of all our PSTs Ken Schwaber that taught me how to how to deliver training. So let's was really the PST program was really helpful to to be at the first training were very well prepared. Yeah, and then you need to continue delivering trainings and improve your inspect that improvement  and that's it, it comes quite, I wouldn't say easily but with some work, it's okay.

Dave West  15:09  
 Can we lean in a little bit about, you know, now you're a PST, you sort of alluded to it, the idea of community and the support network, you sort of said, you're delivering not just me my stories, and my, you know, I'm the tip of the iceberg of these 350 Plus PSTs. Talk a little bit about the community and your experiences now, I'd love to hear

Fabio Panzavolta  15:37  
 Yeah, look, it's a wonderful community. Because we help each other. We build content, with each other, we challenge each other. And, yeah, it's a very recent example, for example, ever, actually, I'm helping a customer with Scrum. And that's a customer that is in France, Italy, China, and Sweden. And what is great in this community is that we are helping my customer with other trainers. In China, I'm taking care of Italy and France, of course, and I have people in Sweden and China that are helping out. So from a point of view of value creation for our customers, we are capable of with multinational companies, for example, we are capable to have a consistent offer, which is really a great thing, because it's come is about behavior is about understanding how to behave in complex environments. And having this consistent material is something that is really, really valuable for our customers. So that's one point. And the other point is about myself, how to be better. And the fact of being in this community is really, you know, taking me I don't know how to say it in English, but helping me growing as a professional. And also my knowledge, growing my knowledge. Yeah, we are face to face, we meet each other. Yeah. And the simple fact that we were able to switch from, you know, in personal trainings to be for trainings so fast, it was astonishing. It was incredible. We really did it in a few days, we were able to work together and transform everything. So yeah,

Dave West  17:40  
Yes, it was a testament to the community as we navigated the pandemic, because people were still delivering classes and they said, Okay, I'm going to test this class, can any of a PST jump on and help me, I've got some clients, and then over, within a month, we'd pretty much pivoted all the classes into a different way of delivering and, and haven't really looked back since it's, it's great. It's a testament to the community. So let's sort of pivot a little bit in the last few minutes of this very short podcast. I mean, we could talk for hours about your journey and some of the things that you've experienced, but I'd love to talk a little bit just about professional Scrum. You know, you you read the Scrum Guide, you started practicing after reading the Scrum Guide, which is very brave, by the way, took the job and then worked out how to do it afterwards, which I'm a big fan of the what is Professional Scrum info you have.

Fabio Panzavolta  18:41  
That's a great question. professionals come to me is acting like, if I didn't know nothing about Scrum. So always having this, you know, I still have to learn. Yeah, it's, it's always a learning experience that is ongoing. I learn a lot from my students. I really learn a lot from my students. It's quite strange, but it's true. And then professionals, clam is not making a compromise on you know, the foundations of Scrum. And it's also really thinking acting and taking the key decisions in the dark, coherent with this combined us with empiricism. And you know, and with the rules of Scrum, so, I really love that we have a backbone is like our backbone. You know, we really need to have this to be strength, strength straight up. And yeah, being a professional Scrum Trainer means that you can understand these points and you act accordingly accordingly is this points. So values first of all come values, then empiricism and then the rules of Scrum.

Dave West  20:14  
That's awesome. I love the use of the word backbone. I always feel that sometimes that you know, yoga is really good at extending and strengthening your back right and, and Pilates as well, the practice, we're always practicing to try to improve our backbone. And that you could argue that the community and the classes and everything our practices as we try to sit up straight, in spite of the complex problems that we're trying to solve. So I love that, you know, Professional Scrum is the backbone to the knowledge workers ability to deliver value. And that's a really, really, really nice thing. So thank you for spending the time with me today. Thank you for taking the time away from your client work and delivering your trainings. The other thing I always think, as somebody in Italy living in France, take you away from the eating, which I'm sure you can, you could teach me a little bit about the food in both those countries is amazing. So thank you for taking the time. I guess, you know, as we hit the end of this very short podcast, anything that you would, in terms of what message would you send to our listeners today? Any sort of final words when you talk to Fabio, this is his words of wisdom? This is his sort of like his, you know, bores everybody at dinner? Because he says that over and over again. What would be the thing that you would you would say, when talking about Fabio, the PST?

Fabio Panzavolta  21:57  
Oh, well, that's a good question. I would say that everything is possible if you want to realize something that we need to work hard, but little step by steps that we can improve and we can solve these complex problems. Yeah, so that's how I have my people, people in teams, you know, in this in their journey to solve their complex problems. So step by step, everything is possible. I think that we just put this on ourselves. So we just need to try. And we will learn something. Yeah.

Dave West  22:44  
That's great. That's everything is possible. If you work step by step, you can climb the highest mountain, you can run the longest race, as long as you focus on that next step, and then getting better every step. I love that, that is a really, really good thing to share. I appreciate you taking the time today. We were listening to Fabio Panzavolta talking to us from Paris, France. Even though he is Italian, a great man of the world. He shared his PST journey and talked a little bit about Professional Scrum. Thank you. Once again, Fabio, thank you. And goodbye everybody.

Fabio Panzavolta  23:32  
Thank you. Ciao!

Transcribed by https://otter.ai