Lindsay Velecina: 0:03

Welcome to the scrum.org community podcast, a podcast from the home of Scrum. In this podcast we feature professional scrum trainers and other scrum practitioners sharing their stories and experiences to help learn from the experience of others. We hope you enjoy this episode.

Ryan Ripley: 0:20

Hi, everyone. I'm Ryan Ripley with Agile for humans and professional scrum trainer with scrum.org. I'm stepping in as a guest host for episodes highlighting the experiences of other scrum.org Professional scrum trainers. I hope you enjoy getting to know these amazing people. Alright, welcome to a new episode of becoming a scrum master. I'm here with my good friend Lorenz Lorenz. It's great to see you. Great to see you too. Ryan. Lorenz is a fellow professional scrum trainer. But before he was a scrum trainer, he was a scrum master. And we're gonna jump right into it this brand new series. Lorenz? Can you share the story of how you first encountered Scrum? And what motivated you to become a scrum master? Was there a particular moment or experience that sparked your interest?

Laurens Bonnema: 1:05

Yeah, and actually, it's a horror story. Because that moment was when I had decided and offered and actually quoted to one of our customers to work with something called Open up, which was a lightweight version of the Rational Unified Process. Okay, and then the CTO of the company I worked for, he said, No, we're not going to do that. Actually, he said a little bit more forcefully, but let's keep it civil. So I thought, okay, so if we're not going to do that lightweight version of ROP that I selected. So what are we going to do? And he said, you're going to do Scrum. And you're gonna like it. And I was like, Yeah, I liked it immediately, a lot less than if I had selected it myself. And that's actually something I currently still quote to people in my training, that's probably not the best way to introduce it to someone.

Ryan Ripley: 1:56

So it was scrum by force, as always the best way? Yeah, with my blog, you're totally approved. Exactly. So clearly, you got pushed into this, hopefully, you got a little bit of training and got to read some books got to do all of the good learning things. So as you're in the middle of using Scrum, was there a specific project or situation where you had this eureka moment? Where you saw the power and potential of Scrum, even though it was forced on you? Was there a moment where the flip or the light switch went off? You're like, oh, this is great. And you describe that experience?

Laurens Bonnema: 2:33

Yeah, sadly, in that project that we're talking about right now, that moment happened after we got kicked out. So my first scrum experience was a true learning experience. And I learned basically everything and how not to do it. Well, the thing was, that at the end, when it really clicked that scrum was, in fact, awesome, was having failed so miserably at that first scrum project. A couple of months later, the team that followed us up and did it old school, waterfall solid, like plan driven with four times more people, they also failed at exactly the same point. And that was when it hit home hard. Okay, so even with Scrum, if you're doing something that's doomed to fail, you'll fail so much faster and better and harder. That actually saves the client a ton of money that they would have otherwise spent on getting something built. They don't need wishes, exactly what happened when they tried it again, with a different approach. And that was, for me, the real thing that they say even if, even if this goes wrong, like quite horribly wrong. That's actually better than than the alternatives. At least. That was what I learned at that point in time. And from then that moment forward. I was like, everything is going to happen with Scrum, which is in and of itself. Another thing I learned to not do later. So point out was I was just a fan a lot

Ryan Ripley: 4:04

of trial by fire here. It sounds like yes. But came out better the other end. So was there eventually a project or an initiative that you worked on where you were, it clicked? And it was like, alright, this makes a lot of sense, are the failure modes enough to where the hardcore failure was enough to convince you that this is a good framework?

Laurens Bonnema: 4:24

The hardcore failure triggered me trying it again and again, because okay, this has to work. And at some point, I did this big government assignment. And there I stealthily worked with the team to create, I think, arguably still the most awesome scrum team I've ever led. There was a small team, and we did it all built end to end really focused on being able to deliver fast and that reached like highest levels of audit requirements. And on the outside it looks like a very classically managed project I have to add but on the inside, it became a close knit team. And most of those people still work with each other call each other. And they like to meet up from time to time because that truly was one of the best teams I've ever been on. It's amazing.

Ryan Ripley: 5:15

So how has your perception and execution of the scrum master role or of the accountabilities? How is that evolved? And are there aspects of the roles or accountabilities, that you now view differently compared to when you started?

Laurens Bonnema: 5:33

Oh, yes, almost all of them actually. Tell me more. I entered into Scrum and Scrum mastery, coming from project management, and program management. So I had basically all the antipatterns laughs people love to make jokes about then that was me. So I did planning and I told people what to do. And all the things that come to think of it, maybe are not scrum at all right. So I even did lots of work for the team and logging their hours and making sure everything was hunky dory, that part teams tend to love right, so that somehow I still ended up doing that as a scrum master. But I also learned the true role of being like a product owner. And the responsibility that entails that shifted from being mostly the people who told us what to do and work on the problems. And then finally, we have a single point of contact. And that caught that one, the product owner into a much more engaged and actually very participatory way of deciding what to work on and explaining the reasons why so much more than just a list keeper. And for the scrum master, which I tend it to be something really similar, much more than just like the project administrator and the person who keeps others busy. And essentially make sure that they become like high performance, quote, unquote, this was truly in service of the people becoming a team, much more coaching and much more guiding and much less directive than when I started doing this. So it's true supportive leadership, and also expanding that out to talking to anyone who would make this team or the set of teams more awesome, including top management. And as it so happens, even CEOs. And they tended to be surprised by somebody from the low end of the company coming all the way up to talk to them. And that was something I learned the hard way, of course, but still, that's really how my thinking evolved. Mostly by, like, failing miserably at first, but then thinking, so why did this went wrong? And so what do I need to do to correct that?

Ryan Ripley: 7:46

Yeah, it's a, it's the it's not the typical story of, it's not the typical rom com version of how I met Scrum. It's not that I was miserable in my waterfall world, and I melt this great thing called Scrum. And like, my projects were better and I was happier. We fell in love, but then it hurt me. And then I came back. And that's the normal kind of path. And it sounds like it was just a bad first date. And you just kept coming back for more terrible rom com Lauren's

Laurens Bonnema: 8:17

I know, it is a bit of a weird art to it, a story wise, but still, I, I really started to love it because of the end result that I had. And because it was much more collaborative, it truly felt like teamwork, and much less like directing people what to do and keeping check and making sure that they actually did it. And that was a nuanced path, but it's still in the end, it's to me, I would have had no, no other way. Right? Really work with a team. help them become maximum awesome, but also be part of that team myself.

Ryan Ripley: 8:55

Prior to using Scrum. What did you do? Were you a traditional project manager, you mentioned RUP? Oh, yes. Perhaps that was your first love affair was RUP, can you talk about the way you worked prior to going down the first your first scrum project? Yeah,

Laurens Bonnema: 9:11

actually, prior to my first scrum projects I was and hold on to your hat here. I was a maintainer of the manual for project execution at a big system integrator, and I was a true project management fanatic. And I was I wasn't like really truly directive because to be honest, I've mostly always been a nice guy. But I was firmly in control. Right. So that was the challenge how to be in control of something essentially uncontrollable.

Ryan Ripley: 9:43

So we wielding like the Gantt chart of power. Oh, yes.

Laurens Bonnema: 9:46

Yeah. Again, charts. The whole the planning was Ill actually at that point in time, I think I may have a certificate somewhere that says something like Microsoft Project on it still. I hide it of course, because otherwise LinkedIn recruiters will Find me and make me a project planner somehow, which is my nightmare because I did project planning, I did well. And I hated every minute of it. So for me scrum that that was the start of the love affair scrum was, oh, we can do this together, which hurts way less. And also, the plans are better, and not just a little bit better. But if I make the plan mechanically it works. But then the people, of course, never actually do it that way. Yeah. When they make the plan, it's so much better. And that was the scrum way. At least, that's what somebody told me. That was the scrum way. For me, that has always been the scrum way ever since do everything with regards to planning together. And the plans are just better. It's simplistic. But unfortunately, sometimes life is actually less hard than we make it. So

Ryan Ripley: 10:50

you started out traditional project management, Gantt chart, ranglin, Microsoft, Project experts and recruiters out there, Lorenz and those project very well be sure to reach out to him was voluntold that you will do Scrum. So that's interesting, because a lot of people will ask, How do I get my first experiences into Scrum and they're digging up waste. And you're just now you were told you were thrust into it? You will, thou shalt do this. It failed. But you loved that it failed sooner than traditional methods. And you could save time and money and effort and heartache. Because it is a romcom apparently, yeah. And then over time, you use Scrum and you saw the collaborative nature working together. The collaborative planning especially stood out as because it led to better plans, more brains, very obvious. And then of course, from there you went on to become a trainer and now you teach and right go ahead, hold up a copy of your book. Sadly,

Laurens Bonnema: 11:46

I don't have a copy of this book. Right here at the desk.

Ryan Ripley: 11:49

We have companion books you've got to hold Oh, Laurens I was looking at Laurie is

Laurens Bonnema: 11:54

purple cover as well. Yeah. It's somewhere behind me. But let's not like no.

Ryan Ripley: 12:02

So Lauren is of course wrote a book in the scrum.org series on agile leadership. So the professional agile leader with Ron rigna. And yeah, and Kurt Bittner. And so from going from Mr. rupt, to published author in the scrum.org series is quite the journey. Laurens. I appreciate you sharing that with us. The last question I've got for you. What advice would you give to someone aspiring to be a scrum master? Is there a particular mindset skill or habit that you believe is crucial for success in this role?

Laurens Bonnema: 12:40

It's a combination of two. First one is just get started. Just do it, read the scrum guide and get after it. Do not expect to be good at this from day one, or after taking a class not even one of the classes that are as excellent as the one that you teach Ryan. The end he was Well, sir, but the and then the next thing there is, as you just ease into it, be ready to renegotiate commitment all the time. What I mean there is promise, what you'll work at. And then the minute you discovered that's not going to happen, or it's not going to work or whatever, immediately renegotiate the commitment, as if it's something normal, right? So do not make excuses for it. But just do that. That's a thing I've picked up along the way, advice given to me from a really dear friend that when I started really doing that, everything became better immediately because you stop truly disappointing people, because the only way to really disappoint somebody is to not tell them, You're gonna disappoint them. And then it's a surprise, another nice one. And those two combined, that that definitely will help you become a great scrum master.

Ryan Ripley: 13:55

Great. We got a bonus question for you. Since we've got just a minute left here. What is the one book every scrum master should read? And we were not allowed to name our own books? Ah, good course. Of course, they should read our books. But what else? Yeah,

Laurens Bonnema: 14:11

that's hard because I always tell them to read your book.

Ryan Ripley: 14:15

Okay, so you're saying fixing your scrubs. Okay, we all agree. That's great. Yeah.

Laurens Bonnema: 14:21

It's great advice. And it's written in a very engaging way. So for me, that would be that I honestly would be the pro tip. So get Ryan's book y'all.

Ryan Ripley: 14:29

Pro tip is reading fixing your Scrum. All right. I will take it I am shameless. I will take it. So Lorenz, I appreciate you doing this. It's great sia and I really appreciate you joining us. Anything you want to plug before you go.

Laurens Bonnema: 14:48

The one thing I would love SCRUM masters to also look into is to visualize information for their teams with their teams and to the whole organization using An Obeah as a philosophy, not just as a tool, which is essentially a war room or a room with all the information on the walls, or could be digital as well. I've

Ryan Ripley: 15:10

done maybe an HSM dashboard. Yeah, but I know.

Laurens Bonnema: 15:13

Yeah, dashboards done if you definitely want that. But it's not a dashboard would just love meters on it's really to have great discussions. And to me, it's story mapping, which is another technique I really like. But it's story mapping then for plants and for for strategies and how to execute them. Cool because it ties all that stuff together. And it ties the two things I'm most passionate about together, which is visualization using graphic recording and sketchnoting and Scrum. For me, it was like an awesome discovery. I've been getting after that for quite a bit now. So wonderful.

Ryan Ripley: 15:50

We'll have to have you back to have that discussion on a future show. So Lawrence, I appreciate you. Thanks for doing this. And hey, stay well. Awesome.

Laurens Bonnema: 15:58

Thank you, Ryan.