Lindsay Velecina: 0:03

Welcome to the scrum.org community podcast, a podcast from the home of Scrum. In this podcast we feature professional scrum trainers and other scrum practitioners sharing their stories and experiences to help learn from the experience of others. We hope you enjoy this episode.

Dave West: 0:20

Hello, and welcome to the scrum.org community podcast. I'm your host, Dave West CEO here@scrum.org. In today's podcast, we talk to three very interesting Agile community people. Glaudia Califano, David Spinks and Patricia Kong. They are authors of a new book, facilitating professional Scrum teams, improving team alignment effectiveness and outcomes. It's in the professional scrum series at Pearson publishing, and recently hit the bookshop. So that's why we're all here. Welcome to the podcast. Glaudia, David and Trish.

Patricia Kong: 0:59

Thank you.

David Spinks: 1:00

Thank you.

Dave West: 1:02

So first things first, before we get into the meat of the topic, which I'm hopefully going to learn Lowe's facilitating isn't my greatest skill I have to be said. But before we do that, our listeners always like to know where you're from, and a little bit about yourself. So let's start with you, Gloria, where are you from? And tell us a little bit about yourself for our listeners.

Glaudia Califano: 1:25

Yeah. Um, so thanks for the great introduction, Dave. So a bit about me, I'm originally from the Netherlands. I grew up in the Netherlands. My dad is Italian, hence the name. And my mum was Dutch. And I moved over to the UK in 2004. I then joined a scrum team. So as a data analyst, so as a developer, but my skill was a Test Analyst. And over the years, I've done loads of different, you know, work and accountabilities and roles that I've taken on as such as product owner, Scrum Master agile coaching, I've done some business analysis. So I quite like to be hands on and really work with teams. So anything that can help a team to be effective, I'm happy to do so I really got very much into facilitation, especially when I did my Lego series play training course. And that really opened my eyes. And after that, I did some cross cultural facilitation workshops, with Luca, Luca, stop with the Lewis model, which is a cross cultural model. And of course, also being part of the scrum community aware facilitation is such a important thing to really help teams become effective. So that's a bit about me.

Dave West: 2:53

Great, thanks. Cool. Yeah, no, actually seen you in action, facilitating large groups of confused a professional scrum trainers back in the day. And so I've seen that you actually can do it, and even if you don't want to sometimes. So, David, tell me a little bit about where you're from what you're, you know, you're a bit loose about yourself. Sure. Thanks,

David Spinks: 3:15

Dave. So my name is David Spinks, I'm based in the UK. I'm a professional scrum trainer with scrum.org. My background is in software development. So I did that for 10 to 15 years or so, before I kind of got into the Scrum and Agile space. So I've been working with lots of different Scrum teams, lots of organization, employees, Scrum, and other way agile ways of working since around about 2012. And I've been a PST since 2019. I think it is. So much like laurea. I still work with teams and organizations, facilitating groups conversations, both at the team level at organizational levels. So I've worked quite closely with Cloudera. We've run workshops with like, 80 people, all the way down to sort of small teams of like four or five people. So So yeah, facilitators, lots of different sorts of different scenarios. In my experience. Yeah,

Dave West: 4:13

that's very sorry, David, that's very obvious from the book. The it's very practical, and I've looked at a lot of facilitation books. And they aren't necessarily practical. They're kind of like quite high level and, and I think practical is really important. Now finally, last but not least, Patricia calm. Tell us about yourself.

Patricia Kong: 4:36

Well, hello, my name is Patricia Kong. And I guess my background of my family is Chinese hence my last name, Califano and Italian. So I've been@scrum.org For over a decade and attached at the hip with Dave West for most of those years, I'd say Dave, and my foray actually into Scrum and Agile I was actually I used to live in Paris, France. And so I've worked with a lot of startups. And at that time, everything was broken and really hurt. And I like to remove pain. So that's how we were introduced to Agile and Scrum. And then when I moved back to the United States, where I'm originally from Boston, I had a chance to meet Kench waiver and take PSM with him and learn from him and join scrum.org and@scrum.org. I focused on enterprise agility. And then when Dave and I were saying, well, that's happening really slowly. Why don't we actually help the individuals in team so I focus a lot on learning enablement. And I think GLAAD is experienced with Lego play is how I started to have a conversation with her because I was a little bit frustrated with how the industry was approaching facilitation at some point. And I thought that wow, this is really a skill that is very valuable, and is missing. That is something that we could offer to, to the community. So Gloria and I started working together with another professional scrum trainer, Todd Miller, and we all love to build stuff. And so we put together a class on facilitation. And then the book was a little bit born out of that, which I guess we'll get into.

Dave West: 6:30

We will, it is funny, though, you've all talked a little bit about how you got to facilitation, I realized, actually, after I became ceo@scrum.org, about eight years ago, as I was working with the trainers, you could really tell when somebody facilitated and when somebody didn't, you know, there was a marked, better feeling outcome, everything was just better. And so that's when I was introduced to liberating structures and, and those practices, which then sort of opened my eyes to a whole new world. And you asked me to write the foreword for your book, which I was very honored to do, along with Sam caner, the facilitation guru. So we both wrote forwards from our particular perspectives. And that, you know, that book, this book really has provided, I think, some great kind of foundations for me to look at facilitation. So I guess the first question and Gloria, if you, if you don't mind, I'd love to hear it. Why was this book needed? What was the inspiration to write it? You worked on the course with a few people? And and I guess you'd been immersed in facilitation, but why did you feel the need for a book,

Glaudia Califano: 7:51

I think you already touched upon it today, when you said there's not a lot of practical stuff out there. And I think when we were developing the cause, I also learned myself so much more as well, uh, during that journey. And I noticed there's just not a lot of practical stuff out there. And the facility facilitation books that we have they, I thought it was really nice to have something with extra bit the scrum element in there. So actually combining those because it's more as facilitation as a complementary practice to Scrum. So that's kind of how I saw it. And I thought it was really good to have something practical that people can say, I can try this, I can experiment with this. We're not saying this as a guide. And you must facilitate like this, it is like, here are all these techniques and principles and, you know, experiment and work with them and see what happens. So that was kind of the inspiration behind it. And of course, as well, when people come to your class, you notice the questions that they asked the things that they're interested in at all, where can I find more information about this and that, and we felt there was a real need, actually, for people out there to actually have something practical that they can read about.

Dave West: 9:09

So tell me and David, maybe you can help me on this as a ex software developer, what is you know, it doesn't feel like we come from an I, myself am a software developer. Back in the day, I doesn't feel like we come from a place where facilitation was part of our DNA. So why is it so important to Scrum? And why is it so important for knowledge workers in general?

David Spinks: 9:39

If we look at Scrum, it's designed around the team, you know, the fundamental unit of Scrum is the team right? If we're going to have high performing teams, teams that have solving complex problems, we should be leveraging the whole wisdom the whole experience the whole knowledge of A group of people. But this is not easy, right? There's if we're solving complex problems we get involves a deep thinking. And if we're presented with a problem, as human beings, we quite quickly jump to like the first obvious solution. But really, if we're, if you're really going to be innovative, we need deeper thinking. So this is where facilitation can help to bring out the best of the different perspectives. And we're all human, right? People think at different paces. We, we, we grant we have different perspectives. We sometimes have different ideas, different thoughts, and sometimes it's difficult for us to understand each other. So facilitation, for me is a process that helps people to get to that shared understanding. So we can understand each other, understand each other's perspectives, empathize with each other, understand the problems that we're trying to solve so that we can get to the best solution possible. Yeah,

Dave West: 10:59

I was, really, I realized that and as I read the book, and I can't read it before it sort of hit the press, that we should really teach this to everybody facilitation. It's kind of embarrassing that we don't teach it in school, because there's been so many instances talking about not necessarily getting the right solution, listening to the loudest voices, you know, getting, not taking everybody along that journey. I've seen it so many times. And I've seen it, you know, throughout my entire life. And it was really kind of telling how, how weak I personally was in some of these practices as well. But what does you know? So facilitation ultimately means helping people get to something and outcome resolve a conflict? Is there anything else that we need to know about? What does facilitation really mean, Trish?

Patricia Kong: 11:56

Yeah, I think just to piggyback on what Gloria was saying, in terms of we, we discovered so many practices, when we thought about what can help people we're trying to facilitate right to make some some instances easier so that we can collectively arrive at a decision, or maybe not. But I think what people miss, and especially from where it was getting a little bit cute in the industry, the intentions were good, but facilitation isn't just practices. So one of the things that we talk about are the principles of facilitation, what and how we can start from there to identify what practices might help. So when we think about that, that is what can bring people in a in a I'm gonna have trouble things in a participatory way to a general outcome. And I think that those things, for me, are really important when we think about what does facilitation mean? What are the principles of how we can get a group of people to or a couple of people to a certain outcome that they're looking for. And so there's a lot of a balancing act. And when people don't think about those, and they just go straight into all these different structures or liberating structures or different practices, I think there's a couple of things that happen, the outcome that they need doesn't happen, isn't met, and the people who are being facilitated, get frustrated. So I'm sure if you felt that Gladion David, as an engineer, when you're just like this, again, we're doing this again. So what

Dave West: 13:34

you're talking about facilitation pantomime? Yeah, I, you know, having been to a lot of agile conferences, it sometimes feels that the Agile coaches want to facilitate because they know how to do it, and it makes them look good. And sometimes the technique is not necessarily aligned to the outcome, and to the people that are there. Do you know Gloria, Deus? Have you seen that on your on your very, very journey? Yes. So

Glaudia Califano: 14:05

um, the reason why I'm nodding. So ferociously is like, I'm quite myself a bit of an introverted person. So when I work in a team, and people start forcing certain things, certain facilitation on me, actually, it has the opposite impact. And I see that with some team members as well we shut down or we just become rebellious or resistant. It's, you know, I don't it's just using probably the wrong approach if for a certain context or for certain nature, nature of people, or, you know what I mean, so I've experienced it from that side. So I'm always very conscious, maybe sometimes a bit too careful or conscious of it, when I'm facilitating myself because I really do not want to feel like today we're gonna have fun, you know, and, you know, I'm really, really lucky Could you tell me where people go? You know,

Patricia Kong: 15:03

I do want to say, though I love fun. And there are a lot of people out there that love fun. And what we're talking about is forced fun, which can be very painful. What happens is, I think we've got a, we've talked about this, how you can try that. And that's great. And some teams really love it, right? It helps them connect there's icebreakers. It's just that when we have to look at what we're meant to do, that stuff gets missed. So we facilitate when something's facilitated, and you kind of the next day, you're like, what happened? I don't I don't know what we're, we're supposed to do. And I think I think these are all all important skills, and practices that that facilitators can think about. And even beyond, you know, outcome, I think one that I've seen really overstepped before is that facilitators are having a lot of trouble, not anchoring conversations, those even those sorts of things. There's a lot of art to it.

Dave West: 16:00

There is a lot of art. And you think that this mean, it's obviously different from coaching. But is it a bit like mentoring? Is it a bit like coaching? Is it so does it come from that school? Or is facilitation? Purely, you know, a technique of orchestration or technique of, you know, sort of enablement as it where is it? Where does it come from? Is it is it different from those other stances that agile coaches, Scrum Masters agile team members need?

David Spinks: 16:38

I think it's something distinct definitely. And us the subtitle of our book kind of says it already, because we talk about outcomes. So I think it's very specific facilitation is about bringing a group of people together to achieve an outcome. I see coaching as something else, I can coach an individual can coach a group, I'm trying to get them to be the best version of themselves. I'm trying to get them to use their own experience. For me, that's distinction between coaching and facilitation, I think is something specific, we want to achieve an outcome as a group, how do we get there together? How do we guide that group together to get get to that?

Dave West: 17:15

So can I just lean into that a little bit? So, you know, I'm often in meetings where I feel the need to facilitate, but I'm also bringing content and experience and ideas. Can I not bring that? You know, I think Patricia mentioned this sort of like hey, leading or anchoring, I think that's the word you used is do I have to step back from that? And bring that later to the, to the problem or to the situation? Is it important for me to be in unbiased and a third party?

Patricia Kong: 17:52

So So facilitation, there should be that neutral stance, right? I'm facilitating I'm here to enable the conversation, I'll ask questions to help move us along. I think that in the nature of the work that we do, I think there's a couple things to think about. If I'm facilitating the conversation, let's make that clear. But let's also make clear that I'm going to participate and make it clear when I'm facilitating and participating. When that doesn't happen. The group, the team is confused, because you could think about, for instance, a product owner facilitating, let's say, a sprint review. And so if they say I'm here to facilitate today, we're going to have these conversations. If they jump in and participate, they're going to anchor stakeholders in that conversation. And it's gonna go in a way that they have not been as innovative as as it could have been. I think for us, when you think about for instance, a scrum team is having a sprint retrospective. And let's say the Scrum Masters facilitating, but they're gonna want to participate as as a scrum team member. So those are those are different ways. But I think when it's not clear, it's confusing for other people who are participating. And sometimes it might be unclear. Yeah,

Dave West: 19:11

I think so. Actually. So what you're saying is, of course, everybody brings their stuff, you know, they can't, as much as I would love not to bring my stuff. Some places, I always seem to carry it around like baggage, but the, you bring your stuff, but as long as you're very clear and intent, you know, show the intent, be very mindful of that stuff that you're bringing, you can actually participate and facilitate at the same time, which brings me to the next question, which is obviously on everybody's mind. Is it always the scrum master or Agile coach or, you know, that kind of accountability or role that is fulfilling facilitation?

Glaudia Califano: 19:55

Yeah, so we made it, I think, a very important point in our book early on. saying no, it's not always the Scrum Master, I think is a bit of a misunderstanding that people always think the scrum master must facilitate everything. Definitely. Like when I work with teams or with organizations, I do see that happening. But like I said, I came from a scrum team member background. And as an analyst, data analyst I used to facilitate, I used to sit the stakeholders, and users, I've facilitated through a lot of different when I had a lot of different roles. And I actually think, when we talk about Scrum, and self managing teams, isn't that great that actually anyone can facilitate and actually help and think and improve their facilitation skills. So especially when we look at the daily scrum, which is really like an event for the developers, so why would we take away that opportunity for them to do it to facilitate themselves? Sprint Review, prime example it, Patricia gave a perfect opportunity for product owner to shine. So So I don't think it should be just a scrum master. And I think it's a great opportunity for self management and also for other team members to facilitate.

Patricia Kong: 21:12

And just just to piggyback on that, and kind of close up, Laurie talking about before. And Dave, your question is, you know, how much do we facilitate almost was the question I want to jump in, I want to participate. And like Gloria was talking about, and as you have a daily scrum, you have developers that are are working together? Well, you know, so that doesn't mean there always has to be heavy facilitation for every, every conversation. So that's something to think about, too. That's why you don't need always this idea that someone much, much facilitators, the scrum master must facilitate every conversation, because I've certainly been part of conversations where when the scrum master wasn't there facilitating or when the person wasn't there facilitating the conversation was much more fluid.

Dave West: 22:02

But I do think though, the book talks a lot about this, and re emphasizes this numerous times. And it's really powerful in this regard, thinking about that outcome, thinking about what you're trying to achieve, thinking about participation, thinking about involvement, thinking about that stuff upfront and during is super important, even if you are very lightweight. In terms of your engagement. Also, Gloria, I think the point that you raised, I think it's a great way to remove that groan, kind of from everybody by encouraging different people to lead. And then they're less likely to be so late anti it as well. That's what that's what I've seen. So all right, I think you've given hopefully, our listeners a little bit of a taste of the flavor of the book and the things that you're you're sharing, but how let's dig into the book a little bit. How is it presented? Is it just a reference guide? Because a lot of those reference guides are not about Scrum and facilitation completely agree. But there are, you know, reference guides around is it something different from a reference guide?

David Spinks: 23:13

Now, we've we've tried to base it on our experiences. So we were very conscious of kind of bringing it to life show the practical application of not just the techniques, but the why behind using different techniques as well. So we've got we've we've structured it in such a way where we've got chapters focused on the different scrum events, also things beyond the scrum events, like how do you get started as a team? How do you create alignment from the so for example, a team how do they arrive at their team working agreement, for example, we talk about facilitation beyond the scrum team. So Scrum teams might need to collaborate with other Scrum teams, or third parties or stakeholders, right. So we've kind of structured the book around these different sort of facilitation scenarios if you like. And we brought it to life with different examples of particular challenges that a scrum team might have. So we describe a situation it's like the each, each little scenario opens up with a little story, kind of highlighting an issue at hand. And then when we're talking through some of the techniques, we are kind of referencing this is how it could help in this situation and how you might chain them together to get to this outcome, etc. We've also included several different sidebars with our own experiences. So real things that have happened to us as well. So it's certainly not just a reference book of facilitation techniques. We've tried to bring it a life to life by showing how it's relevant for these different sorts of situations.

Patricia Kong: 24:59

Yeah, there's Certainly stories, they're stories that people will probably find familiar to them. But that being said, you don't have to read it from front to back. You can pick up and say, Hey, there's there's, there's, there's things that I'm dealing with in conflict might look through that chapter, find the story that feels familiar to you and and find some different techniques.

Dave West: 25:24

Yeah, I think it I actually read it cover to cover because it when I had to write a foreword for it, and I was, you know, a little scared of you, Patricia, so I have to thank you, we thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you. But I liked the fact that it was very accessible. I must admit, I don't necessarily like all this huggy feely malarkey. And one thing I liked about the book because it concentrated on the why. And that made me go, Oh, yeah. All right, then I can see why we have to do that, and why it's important for everybody to spend some time writing, why is it so very important for us to break that, you know, you know, taking a particular technique and why it was useful in that context. And that made it a lot more accessible for somebody that's not the biggest fan of this kind of world have to say so. So I really do appreciate it. So thank you. Thank you for that. All right. So I know we're coming to the end, and I got a couple more things, I really want to know one, I'd love to hear what scenarios, all of you love to facilitate the most. Because I think that's really, really interesting, and maybe a deep psychological, kind of like, tell of who you are as people. So I don't know who wants to go first. But what is your favorite scenario to facilitate?

David Spinks: 26:47

I'm happy to go first, cuz this is a real world example. That kind of happened to me many years ago, and it kind of stayed with me. We often get asked about conflict management. And we talk about levels of conflict. And there was a particular scenario where scrum team that I was working with had a particular sort of challenge within the team, there was frustration with each other. And we went through a retrospective, and I centered it around the scrum value of respect. And I was just, I was looking for an opportunity for the team to again, take on that self management opportunity to start talking about the problem, how there's showing respect to each other. So it's very lightweight sensation, it was setting the scene to enable them to have an open and frank discussion with each other with this problem that they had. And it became, it was kind of on the edge of conflict work could have become unhealthy. But it was it was on the right side where team members were staying professional, they were holding each other to account, but they were talking about, you know, the behaviors that weren't quite, you know, part of helping the team. And it helps them to really understand each other and resolve their problem with each other. So from a facilitation point of view, is just setting up that scene and setting the right sort of environment for people to have that sort of open and frank conversation.

Dave West: 28:11

What's a high risk scenario? Gosh, I, I would have avoided that at all costs. But good, I'm very pleased that that's your favorite. Good idea Trish, which any scenarios that jumped out in your mind that you would be your favorite or most memorable facilitation scenario.

Patricia Kong: 28:32

For me, it would be the complete opposite what David thinks was talking about, I tend to really like even as Commodore more starting off new initiatives. Because I'm someone who likes to brainstorm and create and be creative and more thinking about these different ideas is to Phil's facility is to facilitate almost that kickoff is to say, hey, here's what we're doing. And what we're thinking about, here's the vision, why we're together, and really create a box and environment to listen to what a team thinks about could help them and hinder them. And to create that environment to say, here's how we're going to work together really diligently and attack. Some problems. I mean, even even Gladiola we're talking about the class or David also with the book. It's just even the small environments like that when you're trying to facilitate a conversation to get other people's input and ideas, whether they're introverted, extroverted, more expert, or not in a subject matter, that's really interesting to me to see how people are thinking, and then we manipulate that in the future. Of course, I'm just kidding. We

Dave West: 29:38

don't manipulate but having been in many of those sessions, sometimes I must admit, I felt a little manipulated, but no, we hadn't been in many of those sessions. The great thing about those sessions is incredibly fulfilling. You get a lot of opportunity for IDEA ideation. You've got like a bazillion things On the board, but we manage somehow, mostly, we get to really hone in at the end. So we actually have a next step, a clear direction. And that and I think that's incredibly enjoyable for everybody. Because you get that both that creative moment and then feel like you've accomplished something afterwards which, which is so rare in life. Usually you get one or the other, never both. But it's nice when you combine those two, Claudia, I know this sort of late, they got all the good ones, right conflict brainstorming, what are you left with anything that stands out,

Glaudia Califano: 30:37

I think I've probably have the same as Patricia, like, my favorite scenarios are probably like ideation brainstorming, but what I do love and again, maybe this comes back to how you know how I experienced it myself, as a team member, I do love anything that I can use diverging and converging. So that diverging, that we can get a lot of different perspectives, and then actually really converge and build upon each other. And I absolutely love to love that when that happens, so that everyone has an opportunity to be creative, or to come up with ideas or solutions or whatever. And then actually creating that shared understanding, even if you don't agree with each other, that's absolutely fine. But creating that shared understanding of where people's perspectives are coming from, and sometimes that lightbulb just goes off because sometimes I think, Oh, that's a ridiculous idea, until we actually really great that she had on the Sun is like, oh, there's actually something in that you're not I mean, actually, maybe we should do this. And so it's really that, you know, listening to each other's point of view and really understand the different perspectives and how we can leverage that. I think that's great.

Patricia Kong: 31:51

Just to be clear, as a facilitator, we're not telling

Dave West: 31:59

the joke, get into a good outcome. And one way that you've done that, already, I've noticed is the invitation. You're very mindful of the invitation to the facilitation, that sort of like getting the right invitation can make people really not because I tend to go to meetings, I don't know about you, or but whether this is my agenda. This is my ideas. This is my point of view. I'm just sharing it, that's all. And after the some of the greatest meetings are ones where I go in there with that, but because of the invitation, we approach it in a completely different way, which ends up with an outcome that I hadn't thought about that it's actually very fulfilling, and, and, and maybe even better than the idea I had at the start. Of course, not not not often that case, but sometimes it's yeah.

Glaudia Califano: 32:54

Oh, sorry. I do want to reiterate extra patricians when I said, Oh, that's a ridiculous idea. I mean, that from when I was as a team member notice. Just going back to that, I just realized what I said, don't worry. No, it's a no, you're neutral. Or

Dave West: 33:12

you definitely tried to be as neutral, though, times it does take some effort has to be said, All right. So we're coming to the end. This has been awesome. Thank you for spending the time. So any sort of, I'd love each of you sort of what to give our listeners what would you say to our listeners, in terms of the one thing, the one takeaway around facilitation, that you think that? Let's just think about it, that should be the one takeaway, that they should go away from this, listen to this podcast about who wants to start the one thing?

David Spinks: 33:52

Think for me? Think I would stress you know, facilitation isn't just about the meeting. Facilitation involves preparation, follow up all that sort of things. And I think as you're thinking about facilitation, always bringing it back to the facilitation principles. And the one that I've got in particular mind is, how does what you're doing? How does what you're planning? How does that connect to the purpose of what you're trying to achieve? How is that facilitation idea that you've got, whether it's using a technique, whether it's thinking about who should be there? How does it help achieve the outcome that we're trying to achieve with that group of people?

Patricia Kong: 34:33

I think for me, just to follow from what David was talking about, one tip is that facilitation techniques do not need to be elaborate. So facilitation can also be let's take a break. Everybody take five minutes. Let's pause a little bit. It's not always about you know, writing and posting notes and all these things. It's about what do we need in that moment, to help us move to the next step to reach our outcome? Right.

Glaudia Califano: 35:02

Yeah, and I want to build a bit more on what David said about facilitation. It's not only about events, and I want to take it further as well. Often we think about facilitating the scrum events, but actually, it's facilitating interactions, facilitating Lacan of those dynamics that happen. It's facilitating making sure that that people talk to each other, you know, during the sprint, you know, having that facilitative mindset as well. So it's not just rocking up to a sprint retrospective and a facilitated, or to sprint review is actually what happens during the sprint sometimes needs facilitation. Oh,

Dave West: 35:41

you heard it listeners, we have preparation and outcome we have take a moment, sometimes not doing something is the best action to really come back together and get to that outcome. And then that facilitation mindset can be applied continuously, not just at the events as prescribed by the scrum guide. But also in general interactions in when groups of people work together, when even when you're working with just one person, it can be valuable. That mindset is actually really valuable. David, Claudia, Patricia, thank you for spending the time there. It was really, really interesting. Thank you for writing the book as a sort of anti that kind of stuff kind of guy by by persuasion. I have to say it opened my eyes to lots of other ideas that, that even if I don't do, I'll be encouraging others to do. Thank you for that.

David Spinks: 36:46

Thank you for the foreword as well.

Dave West: 36:48

Very welcome. Okay, today you heard the scrum.org community podcast. We had three fantastic speakers. Claude Gloria LFR. No, David Spinks and Patricia Kang, authors of a new book facilitating professional Scrum teams, improve team alignment, effectiveness and outcomes. Thank you for listening. As always, please stay on this channel on whatever channel you're on or you're receiving this podcast on and hopefully there'll be other podcasts that tickle your fancy. Thanks, everybody. Scrum mom.