Lindsay Velecina: 0:03

Welcome to the scrum.org community podcast, a podcast from the home of Scrum. In this podcast we feature professional scrum trainers and other scrum practitioners sharing their stories and experiences to help learn from the experience of others. We hope you enjoy this episode.

Ryan Ripley: 0:20

Hi, everyone. I'm Ryan Ripley with Agile for humans and professional scrum trainer with scrum.org. I'm stepping in as a guest host for episodes highlighting the experiences of other scrum.org Professional scrum trainers. I hope you enjoy getting to know these amazing people. Alright, welcome to another episode of becoming a scrum master. I'm your host Ryan Ripley. Joining me today is Demetri, a fellow professional scrum trainer with scrum.org and Agile coach. He does agile for value kind of close to Agile for humans, but agile for value, maybe values better than humans. I don't know. And it looks like a center as well. So Dimitri, thanks for joining us. And thanks for doing this.

Dimitris Dimitrelos: 1:01

Thanks for having me. And I am, of course,

Ryan Ripley: 1:05

we'll get right into it. Can you share the story of how you first encountered Scrum? And what motivated you to become a scrum master? And was there any particular moment or experience that really sparked your interest? Hmm.

Dimitris Dimitrelos: 1:19

Yeah. My studies cold kicked out before Christmas. Okay, so it's like 2011 12 years back, and it's around this time of the year. And I'm a project manager, managing software development project. That, right from the start, it had like big, red warning signs flashing all over it. Okay. I mean, according to traditional project management risk assessment, it was, you know, risk pool all the way. It was a new customer. So we had never worked with this customer before. It was a new technology, we had never used this technology before. And, of course, my company had seriously underestimated therefore needed, because we wanted to get in the customer. So we over promised, we promise things that could not be delivered. Sounds

Unknown: 2:24

about right. Yeah. So

Dimitris Dimitrelos: 2:28

we started in June, three months, in the project, and around September, we realized that we had to come clean to the customer about or over promising. And we did negotiate a new deal, giving us some breathing space, we thought so we had another three months, but this was the last the first and last extension extension we would get in the project. And then we started really tough periods. Yeah, it was like a death march project. You know, there's months where, you know, prisoners of war marched in the desert. And when someone falls from exhaustion, then nobody picks them out. They just keep on going. This was my project team. So people would work very late, people would work on weekends. And they would they would call in sick, or they would threaten to resign, or they would resign. So we had to find displacements very fast. So it was really held three months from here. Still, things did not improve. We did not improve our corporate core collaboration with the customer things, we're not gonna go there right before Christmas. So at this time, the year, the customer was about ready to kick us out. So the CIO of my customer called my boss, and they said, is this is not working out, the project is heading for the rocks, and it really was heading for the rocks. So at this time, I was I was reading about Agile and Scrum. This was my hobby, reading was my hobby. So I read about it. So I thought that we might as well give it a try. I mean, it was a lost cause anyway, so we didn't have anything to lose. So I reached out to my customers, project manager, and I said, George, I have this idea. Can we try something? He said, Okay, I mean, we're gonna lose a job anyway. So we went over to the business part of my customer, and we told them guys, you have you have asked for about 50 functionalities? We haven't you haven't gotten anything yet. We know, but we just wanted to know, are these 50 Equally important, or these 50 functionalities? Are they equally important? And they said, No, of course not. These 10 out of 50 are really going to solve, like 80% of our problem, because right now we're doing all the things manually. So if we give them these 10 It will save us About 80% of the problem, we said, Okay, what if we deliver this in a month, just this, then nothing more. So we will not deliver the full project. And we will not tell you when we will deliver the rest 40 The other 40. But this time, we will deliver within a month. And he said, this, this can be great. Maybe we can, you know, not kick you out just yet. Maybe we can wait another month. So what you can do? So I went back to the team. And I asked him if it's doable, and they said yes, but we will not, you know, deal with the other 40 We'll just pretend they don't exist. We'll just we'll, we'll do justice done. And they did it. They didn't mean they didn't do they didn't do 10 They did nine, which was still pretty good. And they did it. They did it right after Christmas. And they even took vacation on Christmas, which was like a big gift given the situation. But they did deliver. And then, you know, something magical happened during the review. We didn't call it sprint review. But it was, you know, a customer review. When we presented the functionalities, then everyone was really happy. And the product team breathed again, they had a great sign of relief. And then when this was just mind blowing for me, I had saved a project because after that we started to deliver delivering another time, another time, and then another five every two weeks. And then this went on for years. And it was considered a very, very successful project. So as I saved my, my, you know, project management career actually didn't because I never came back to being a project manager again. I started becoming a scrum master right away after that. I saw the light. Yeah. Yeah, and this is my this is my scrum story.

Ryan Ripley: 7:08

Very good. So, I mean, you've talked about a specific project or situation already. But has there ever been a eureka moment where you saw the true power? And potential of Scrum? And could you describe that experience?

Dimitris Dimitrelos: 7:23

Yeah, we have a lot of these as a Scrum Masters, we do have a lot of this. And every time it's different than every time, it's, it's almost equally good. So apart from this first experience ahead. It's always mind blowing, when people, especially people high in the in the hierarchy, they experience their first sprint review. So when you as a scrum master, sometimes you you know, start with a new customer. And then you gather a small group of people that are in the first line low in the hierarchy. Yeah. And you work for them for life, or sprint, two weeks or three weeks. And then at the end, you call all the people from management of the company, maybe managers high in the, in the hierarchy ladder, and the team calls them over for a sprint review. And when they see and experience the sprint review, it's mind blowing for them. It's very satisfying for the scrum master, and also a eureka moment on how you can actually cause change in a company. So just by, you know, connecting the people that actually do the work with the people that make the decisions. They see how they can achieve things within a very short time period. And they see how they can self organize, and they see how the team can solve problems by themselves. And they see how they can work out and you know, find workarounds in situations that are not easy to navigate in a complex organizational structure. So they find ways to overcome the challenges. And it's usually an eye opening for them. And it's a eureka moment for us because you think, you know, this is how you can cause change. It's great.

Ryan Ripley: 9:28

How was your perception and execution of the scrum master role or accountabilities evolved? Are there aspects of the role or accountabilities, that you've viewed differently now compared to when you first started?

Dimitris Dimitrelos: 9:42

Yeah, that's a great question. That's a great question. Initially, during my first scrum assignments, Scrum Master assignments, I stayed a lot close to the scrum guide. Yeah, I try to do the events exactly. I I thought this should be, I tried to teach more than coach, I try to, to teach the people in the organization. I try to sell them scrum very often. Later on, I realized that this is like the easiest step, the first step, after the team learns the basics, learns the mechanics, and they have some breathing space, some some protected space where they can operate, then, usually they do pretty good. I mean, this is the this is why Scrum is so popular, you give, you know, you take a group of people, and you teach them Scrum, and you give them some breathing space, and they usually work great stuff, they work out great stuff. So but after that, your role changes, then you have to work with the interface of the team with the organization. And later on, when you create more themes, you work more of the organizational aspect, and interface aspect than the actual team, or than the application the adoption of Scrum within the team level, then it gets more complex, it gets it gets more difficult, but it also gets more impactful on the number of people, you can actually the number of people that your lives you can actually influence. It's great. So not just first, the first the team, then the interactions of the team with the rest of the organization, and then the organization itself. So it's a different story. It's time but it still continues to be the best in the world.

Ryan Ripley: 11:54

That's awesome. So when we think about the the aspiring Scrum Masters, someone who's thinking about taking on this, this accountability, what advice would you give them? So is there a particular mindset, skill or habit that you believe is crucial? Experience, things like that? What would you recommend to someone who's thinking about starting the scrum master journey?

Dimitris Dimitrelos: 12:18

Yeah, we've been thinking about this a lot. So at Accenture, we hire a lot of people or business agility practice is growing. So we are thinking about what we are looking for in the scrum master role in a person applying to be a scrum master? Or what do we post on our job postings. So I think from from skills point of view, we need people who are good with people. So we need people skills. We need people who are natural organizers, people who like to organize stuff, but most of all, we're looking for a personality trait that is called Helping like to helping others. So what we ask even if people don't have any, any experiences scrum master at all, what we ask is, have you had any volunteering experience? So do you like helping others? Have you ever worked in a service industry where you served others? And how was that experience? And we also, we also like to focus a lot on their personal values and people's personal values. So what do they what do they value more in their life? And we don't ask this question, what are your personal values? We ask it in a different way? So for example, if you look, if you if you're looking for a business partner, yeah, to create a joint company, join enterprise with one person, what would be the characteristics of this person? Sure. So if we, if we hear answers like this is a person that has to be very open, very transparent, very honest, a person that likes to help others likes to help the team achieve their goals, it means this is their personal values. So it means that it's a person that is suitable for the role.

Ryan Ripley: 14:30

Great. That's good to hear. I've got one more for you, Dimitri. I appreciate you. Given these great answers. What is the one book every scrum master should read and it does not have to be an agile book does not have to be a scrum book. But one book that you think that every scrum master should read?

Dimitris Dimitrelos: 14:49

That's a tough one. So so many good books out there Yeah, I I think, I think, well, it's not it's not a book about Scrum. It's not a book about Scrum Masters. But it has influenced me personally a lot, and has given me some mental models that I have been using for quite a long time. And I think they're still very relevant. The book is reinventing organizations by Frederic Laloux. And I think it's a it's a mind opening book, I think every person dealing with organizations dealing with organizational change. So read this. And therefore, every scrum master, who's doing is primarily tends

Ryan Ripley: 15:48

to love it. They came out with an illustrated version of that book. And that's how I finally got through it. I struggled with it and everyone because everyone kept saying, You gotta read Lulu, you gotta read Lulu. And I'm, like, I'm not smart enough. Apparently, I can't get through it. But then they did this illustrated version of the book. And it was great, really wonderful ideas. So I wholeheartedly agree. Well, Lou is a great author for Scrum Masters and check out.

Dimitris Dimitrelos: 16:12

Thanks for that. I'll try to get it. Yeah, it's very good. So

Ryan Ripley: 16:16

Dimitri, I appreciate you doing this. I might have questions. Is there anything you'd like to get in front of the listeners and anything you'd like to promote anything that you think they should know about you?

Dimitris Dimitrelos: 16:30

Well, it's Christmas time. So I hope everyone has a great vacation period. I hope everyone keeps practicing what they love, and I hope everyone brings out their best self at work. And we really, I mean, as grandmasters. This is a job. Yeah, this is to unleash the potential of humans to unleash the hidden human capital, hidden or suppressed in in small and big organizations, so that people can enjoy their work more. And at the same time, organization companies perceive better business results. It's great. So yeah. Thanks for having me.

Ryan Ripley: 17:30

Oh, of course. No, this was really helpful. I think people they need to hear these journeys right to as you were saying, to inspire, but also to show them it is a journey, and there's quite a bit of growth and change, and it's no I really appreciate you doing this.

Dimitris Dimitrelos: 17:49

Thank you very much.

Unknown: 17:50

Certainly.