Lindsay Velecina: 0:00

Music. Welcome to the scrum.org community podcast, a podcast from the home of Scrum. In this podcast, we feature professional scrum trainers and other scrum practitioners sharing their stories and experiences to help learn from the experience of others. We hope you enjoy this episode.

Dave West: 0:20

Hello and welcome to the scrum.org community podcast. I'm your host. Dave West, CEO, here@scrum.org today's podcast is the scrum master Real Talk series podcast. It's this is a special series we want to hear from Scrum Masters sharing personal stories, whether it's about overcoming obstacles, creative solutions to problems, or critical lessons they learn on their journey to be a scrum master. So today, we're very fortunate to have with us Andreas whitla from based in Germany. He's going to join us and talk a little bit about his experiences and his journey. I've actually spent a bit of time with Andres around the world, so I'm really excited to have Andreas on the podcast. Say, welcome to the podcast.

Andreas Wittler: 1:09

Hi and thank you for having me. And it's a great opportunity. Good to see you again.

Dave West: 1:15

Good to see you too. Okay, well, let's, let's get in there then. So how, how did you start your scrum master journey?

Andreas Wittler: 1:23

I started it while turning around a hospital that was in economic trouble, and we without knowing, yeah, refer to Agile principles, and found out week after week what to improve, and finally succeeded in turning this thing around. So it was a quite interesting experience. And after that, I felt I would like to work always like that, the formal training of Scrum master training started, and after a while, I couldn't get enough. I started with the traditional PSM one, and then went on. And until now, I almost finished them all. Catch them all.

Dave West: 2:10

Oh, wow. You are one of those very few people in the world that have taken many of the certifications and but that isn't the reason why you're here today, really, though those certifications are awesome, and we love them. It's your experiences that hospital sounds really, really interesting. So they were having some operational challenges.

Andreas Wittler: 2:33

Oh yes, yeah. The thing with hospitals is they care for people, not for the financial side, on the first hand. So then they had a data lake of patients and data how they treated them. They had their financial side, but apart from it, and they have the people doing the work a third side of that picture, and all these fees were little connected, if at all. So to have a clear view around the economic side of all these value streams, if you want to say something like that, then they had to say, well, we don't know. We just care for treating people here, and that brought them a lot of struggle. So we started with implementing some BI software there, and then found out where to improve things. And I work with nurses and technicians, novel people, young doctors, experienced doctors, whoever wanted, all these volunteers wanted to save their company. Great experience, and it is

Dave West: 3:43

and, and obviously you get to see the benefits continuously in a situation like that. I had a similar experience in an animal hospital, so a veterinarian, and they were having, you know, COVID hit, and basically they were trying to operate. But of, you know, with all the safeguards in place and the relationship with the customer, the person that pays them, you know, the pet owner, kind of broke down, and the operational system started to collapse, and and so we just did something very, very simple. We got a backlog of challenges, and we incrementally in these small chunks of time, focused on one at a time. We fixed it, we got feedback, met daily, and amazing things happen. Okay, so, so I, you know, it's funny that you mentioned hospitals, because I think that side of the use of Scrum is something that we often don't talk about. So you went from then you were like, I'm I'm into this agile stuff. This is, this is awesome. So what other types of organizations have you worked with?

Andreas Wittler: 4:48

My second job as a scrum master was with a small startup. We had the challenge of including six locations, five different cultures. Is, yeah, they went for cost efficient offshore near shoring solutions, with someone in India as well. So it spent a few time zones, and we had our cultural differences. That was very, very interesting. And right now I'm working with one of the largest organizations in Germany. They are providing the public transport with trains. So yeah, you name it, I have done it somehow. It is from very, very small to very, very large. I also worked, worked for BP in London. So yeah, it's not only for German

Dave West: 5:40

companies, interesting. So your journey has been very varied, and that's one of the benefits of being a scrum master, right? You get the opportunity to work with many different types of organizations and about what they're doing.

Andreas Wittler: 5:56

Sorry to interrupt that, and I'm thankful for this broad of views on people working with people in Shanghai or in, I don't know, Auckland, New Zealand or in Bengaluru is so different. And even Scrum is not the same. It depends a lot on also the cultural background of people working together. So what? What

Dave West: 6:22

was the same between all these organizations? Why, you know what, what sort of was the universal connection point? Do you feel? Was it the challenges that they faced, or was it? Yeah,

Andreas Wittler: 6:35

the challenges, the complex challenges, no easy way out. And then all of them called it strong, whatever it was, they called it strong. But they wanted to succeed and deliver services, valuable services, to their customers. And that was the main point they didn't have, and a clear master plan or something. They just started where they are command style, I would say. And then we found out by doing the work improving from Sprint to sprint, whatever could be improved within the constraints, the given constraints. Of course, that sounds

Dave West: 7:13

so I get that sounds really simple in lots of ways, but obviously the reality when you've got human beings, systems, legacy systems, existing environments, etc. It's, it's, it's a it's a lot harder than that. What? What are the biggest challenges you have faced as a scrum master?

Andreas Wittler: 7:34

I must admit, always we started in in situations where work was pushed into the teams. So a pull system, what is the theory of Scrum? Creating a pull system was not there. It was not a green field situation, something like that. And the second most important thing is balancing learning against delivery. It is not a contrast. It is do this and that, and find time for learning and improving things and defend the team in this regards towards they have to have time for learning and experimenting, doing spikes and all that. Yeah, it, as I said, it was not an easy way out and use that situation. So Did, did,

Dave West: 8:23

with respect to the sort of pull versus push and a situation, you know, ultimately, something that I've seen a lot, but ultimately, Scrum teams benefit from the ability to own their own destiny. And one of the biggest challenges that I've seen, I was in in 2019 I was in Sao Paulo in Brazil, and I spent a week visiting lots and lots of Scrum teams. It was really, really awesome. And the one thing I noticed over and over again was that their sprint reviews, their sprint planning sessions, even their dailies, were very much about doing the work that they were told to do. They didn't talk about outcomes. They didn't talk about value. Is that similar to what when you're talking about pulling versus pushing?

Andreas Wittler: 9:11

Yes, of course, and it is coming from the traditional background. How you see yourself as a developer? What is it? Are you being asked to do something. Are you thinking, how could this outcome be reached even in better ways? Right now, we are working with three teams on one product. So this is a situation a little bit different from normal classical Scrum, with one product and one team doing the work, so coordinating, finding finding within the constraints of the organizations, your personal way. Every team has a personal way, and then it is about working together. It is not working separately in a co working space. So there is conflict inevitable. You can't start scrum without having conflict. Yeah. Working through this, finding your way of dealing with healthy conflict, that is really challenging, and it is the joy of my group. I would say that treating all these adults as adults, and helping them to find their ways of collaborating that is that is really interesting, and every day there's something new around the corner for me. I can plan my day, but just the first or second meeting, the days would be like the rest goes, I don't know where.

Dave West: 10:30

And so as as a scrum master, you ultimately are jumping in trying. You're noticing issues. You're jumping in trying to help, trying to help the teams. And you've got three teams working in one product, hopefully using a Nexus that's, there's a quite an interesting book written about that, just just saying and passing, but the hopefully these three teams. So you've got these three teams working together and during the day. Ultimately, your job is to ensure that they're effectively collaborating. Dependencies are being effectively managed, impediments are being removed. You're making things more transparent so the teams can take ownership and control. Does that really sum up your job as a scrum master?

Andreas Wittler: 11:17

It is, it is part of it, and my first job is to find out what is it that I will be doing today against plan. What I have planned is only my idea, my assumption, based on what I knew yesterday. But then after the day this, I have a clearer picture, and I see sometimes conflict, conflict being in the open, conflict being avoided, opportunities, loss. So it is not just facilitating a meeting. Someone can can say SCRUM masters are just facilitators or secretaries to teams. It's something No it's much more teaching and coaching, finding the time to work with individuals, of course. And that, I would say, is a distinction between many Scrum Masters not doing that in individual coaching a lot, and then the ones just walking into into that direction and helping the teams and their members. And I'm stealing a lot of insights and also practices from couples therapy.

Unknown: 12:21

Gosh, yeah. But David

Andreas Wittler: 12:24

snarch and Esther Perel and so many good couple therapists, they have so clear angles on solving problems between people that I simply said, yeah, that's it. I want to try it and it worked.

Dave West: 12:39

Wow, yeah, that's a little bit of a surprise. I've not been to couple therapy, but And as my wife walks by outside, I'm a little bit nervous to even talk about this subject in a group. But I think the point immaterial of whether it's couple therapy, whether it's Theory of Constraints, whether it's any of these things. The point that you raised is really that this, this idea that a good scrum master looks at the challenges and uses tools that aren't just from Scrum, but wherever they can, wherever they are. They're like, Oh, that's interesting. I noticed a lot of conflict. I'll look at couples therapy, or therapy in general. Oh, I've noticed that we're not getting much work through the system. Or maybe I can look at the Theory of Constraints, Kanban techniques like that, you know. So I think that's a key element of being a good scrum master. Would you agree? Andres

Andreas Wittler: 13:37

Absolutely yes. It is balancing the team against their goals. So what is it that they are maybe over focusing typical thing delivery, and what is it that they are undervaluing this open conflict is not necessarily bad, but working with a team in Shanghai, it is really hard to have a retro there, where the elephant comes out and is being shocked and somehow treated as a team needs, or to name another situation, we had a lot of teams with engineers travel from India, and they just wait. They don't talk easily. That is okay. It is something cultural. But then they have a lot of good ideas, how to influence them, to put them on the table, to speak openly to the team, what they are seeing, hearing, feeling and thinking. That is really a challenge for me as a German. It is sitting in the middle of it, and I like this conflict or discussions, open discussions, but it is not easy for people in Asia. It's not their style of working together in general, working with a team in Oregon, something completely different.

Dave West: 14:50

Oh, yeah, yes, our friends in Oregon are very different that so it is, I hate to say you reminded me of a team. TV show. There's a TV show on Apple TV called Ted lasso about an American Coach that goes to the United Kingdom and plays soccer. And you know, my love for soccer, we've talked at length. I bored you at length. And finally you managed to escape. When you managed to get away from me, talking about Leicester City, but that he goes and he utilizes all sorts of different techniques to get the team to work together. You know, you know, believe in themselves. And, you know, taking the bringing together this very disparate group of individuals that didn't necessarily want to work as a team, and ultimately not quite winning the Premier League. They ended up being second, but being, oh gosh, for the spoiler alert, if anybody's not watching the series, I apologize, they might still win it. But it is, it is a really interesting ideas, and it's, it's servant, even though we drop the word servant leader from the scrum guide. Ultimately, that is exactly what I hear when you when you speak, yeah,

Andreas Wittler: 16:05

what is missing in the education of many developers is having good conversations. And that is something I found out only after a while, the conversation is the base plan for the day, having it in the daily and in all the talks alongside the work is the basis, and it is more likely than not that there is some misunderstanding, some aspect of the work not being caught properly, or someone thinking it is clear enough. But it is not, while doing the work and calling the work against the plan, it turns out that it is something that's a difference in assumptions or in how it is executed, or exceptions, criteria, or you name it. So then, how do we deal with this gap, and how do we find ourselves as a team, doing the work together? It it is not individuals can succeed at all if it's individuals and they have to interact over the process of Scrum or whatever frameworks they use. But Scrum is helpful to bring this to the open.

Dave West: 17:18

Yeah, and I mean making things transparent, actively, sort of finding those, those those challenges, and resolving them. Okay, so if I'm new, you know, if I, you know, maybe I'm new to being a scrum master. Maybe my boss has just said you will be the scrum master. We're going to do Scrum what advice? You know, you've had a really interesting journey and a combination of really interesting experiences combined with formal, you know, learning and certification, etc. So what would you what would you tell this new scrum master that's just joined this team or has been hoisted upon the team? What would you say to them?

Andreas Wittler: 18:00

First thing I would say, congratulations. This is very challenging but also satisfying journey. It has been for me, and it will be till the end of my life. I hope so. It is about self knowledge. It is also about recognizing the positive aspects in every team, and it is also being creative. It is a lot of creative work that is needed from our side. It is not facilitating meetings, working with people. And people are never the same, not even the same team in the same situation after a couple of months, they behave differently, definitely. So we are on the journey. And this is not boring. This is a great opportunity to grow yourself, grow with the people, grow the people somehow as a coach in that sense of picture, and yeah, find your own ways in this context. That is the challenge. You don't have a map. You don't have much of theory, just a few hints. It is, a few events, a few roads, and then go for it. The artifacts are helping you to find your way.

Dave West: 19:13

So what would you say? The first thing they should do, though they've got this new job, is, it, is it active, facilitating the events to gain credibility. Is it trying to raise track, you know, looking at the artifacts to make sure the transparency is appropriately held. Is it to look for the telltale signs of challenges such as, no sprint goal, cloudy product goal, Product Owner never in Bear, What do you think should be the first thing that they do that

Andreas Wittler: 19:45

is the first thing to find out so there is no silver bullet. Oh, and to find your own backlog items is the first challenge you have as you start a new Scrum teams build a backlog. So what is it? What. You want to have in that backlog. It's the same thing is true for the scrum master. You are serving a team, and you are the product owner of that situation. What is it? What your services shall provide in the end? Is the picture clear enough? Is it something like a vision that we have to create first before starting the work? Or is it something like, how would we like to know each other? How deep shall this working together go? Maybe something like that. It is a lot of opportunities around you. You can't catch them all in that sense, you have to prioritize and then start wherever you think it is the most value can provide and learn from it. Get feedback, of course.

Dave West: 20:45

So the the idea of creating your own backlog is a really powerful one, and something that I've I've tried many times, sometimes success and sometimes less so. But I think it's a really, really, you know, powerful idea driving the this transparency and visibility of the of the of the interact the things that you're focused on, and then having goals in the same way as sprints out, you know, have goals, and tying those goals, hopefully into the sprint goal and the work that you're doing, but ultimately developing your skills alongside the team to support that Team or just be a little ahead of the team, is also kind of useful as well. That's great advice. I you can challenge yourself

Andreas Wittler: 21:30

and build a one day sprint backlog and see where it leads here. What is it that I want to finish this day I want to provide to my team.

Dave West: 21:43

That's a really interesting idea. The idea of that, sort of, like goal driven, sort of management of your own time is a really powerful tool. Well, thank you. I could talk all day about these topics as you well know, you know the product ownerships, Scrum and Leicester City are the only things I talk about, which is very, very boring, but we could talk for days. So thank you for spending the time. Andreas with us today.

Andreas Wittler: 22:14

Thank you for having me, Gabe, always a pleasure meeting you. Thanks a lot.

Dave West: 22:20

Well, today we were lucky to have Andreas whitla, based in Germany, to talk about his scrum master journey, and how he went from helping a hospital to working in large organizations throughout the world, with teams spread across the across the whole planet. Thank you for listening today's scrum.org community podcast. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe, share with friends, and, of course, come back and listen to some more. I'm lucky enough to have a variety of guests talking about everything in the areas of professional Scrum Product thinking, and, of course, agile.

Andreas Wittler: 22:54

Thanks everybody and scrummorg,