ScrumOrg Marketing: 0:00

Music. Welcome to the scrum.org community podcast, a podcast from the home of Scrum. In this podcast, we feature professional scrum trainers and other scrum practitioners sharing their stories and experiences to help learn from the experience of others. We hope you enjoy this episode. Hello

Dave West: 0:20

and welcome to the scrum.org community podcast. I'm your host, Dave. We're CEO here@scrum.org today's podcast is in the scrum master Real Talk series. It's a special series where we want to hear from scrum master sharing personal stories, whether it's overcoming obstacles, creating solutions, or critical lessons they've learned during their during their journey, how they helped and foster agility in their teams they've worked with and the organizations today, we're incredibly lucky to have Jim sparks from Dayton, Ohio in the United States of America. Welcome to the podcast,

jim sparks: 1:00

Jim. Thank you very much. It's actually a pleasure to be here. Great. Well,

Dave West: 1:06

let's you should hold that judgment until the end, Jim, but the being optimistic, right? First job of every scrum master, be an optimist. I think. Great. So All right, let's start at the very beginning. How did you become? How do you think you become a scrum master? Well,

jim sparks: 1:28

it was actually very accidental. For a little while I was, you know, I would call myself an accidental Agilist, because I was a data guy working in Teradata SQL Server, that type of thing. And the team I was starting to work with, the scrum master was very busy at the time. I didn't know any better, but I come to find out, he was doing a lot of things that at the time you didn't typically expect a scrum master to do. So I just started volunteering. Hey, I can help you with that. Let me help you with that. How about I help you with that? And after about four to six weeks, he just kind of checked that and let me go. He just kind of said, Here, you do it. And he provided oversight and training and helped me, you know, learn as we were going, but he let me take the reins of that team and that work on that product. So it was pretty awesome. At that point, I started to learn as much as I could. I started to absorb knowledge, read books, reading, you know, the blog articles, watching videos, a lot of scrum.org, trainers. Actually, I was trying to learn from to get better at it, because I really fell in love with what I was was doing. And the biggest reason I really resonated with me was the servant leadership aspect of it. I had always that was kind of my personality. It's who I was, it's it's what I am in my DNA is, you know, a servant leader at heart. And I'd never really heard of the term servant leader until I started down the scrum master path, and then I was like, whoa. Someone wants to pay me to do what I already do anyway. So for me, it was a no brainer at the time, so I jumped into it with full force, and, you know, kind of led me to here. So I've been through seven and a half ish years doing this, and I love everything about it. I've learned, different industries, different types of work, been in benefits and compensation, HR, cyber security, medical device industry, a lot of different industries, finances. And so you get to see a little bit of differences in how people apply Scrum and agility in general, based on where they work. So it's kind of fun. It's been a lot of fun for me. It's

Dave West: 3:46

been a fun journey. So, so when you first got into the job, as it were, took it, took over the accountabilities, incrementally, slowly, from the scrum master and your team working in data, compare how you thought the job was then to what you think of it now, what did you initially think you were getting into?

jim sparks: 4:11

It's completely different. I will say that from then to now. And for me, it went from a kind of an arc where I had these expectations of what it would be, you know, the servant leadership aspect of it, working in the shadows. I always call I've called it that for years, working in the shadows. You know, the goal is always of a good scrum master, at least it was when I first started, was to fire yourself to really get your team to the point that they're completely self organized and they can really run without you there, and that's what I thought it was. This is great, because I get to help them achieve their version of success. And, you know, maybe slink into the corner and go off and do that with another team. And then through the course of my journey, I found out there's, you know, a lot more involved to it than just, you know, kind of slinking away into a corner and. And servant leadership. And as I started to grow and learn, learn about delivery, and learn about how you can impact delivery of a product from you know, your position as a scrum master was a lot of fun, and now kind of going on the other end of it, it's, I feel as if it's shifting more focus towards the delivery aspect of it as it should, you know, because you're supporting a team that ultimately they're there to deliver. So if you can enable that and enable their success and that delivery of that product, yes, you can still be a great servant leader. Yes, you can still, you know, be the person that is everyone looks to, and everyone relies on and counts on to, to help them. But you also have to be able to focus on, how do I deliver this product from my organization, which I think back then, it wasn't quite as focused on that, the accountability of Scrum Master itself as it is now. So I actually love the shift in the way it's going.

Dave West: 6:03

That's interesting, because obviously the scrum guide, we in the 2020, release of the scrum guide. Who made the changes? Well, Ken and Jeff made the changes to make the scrum master, the whole scrum team accountable for delivering value. And really tighten that up a little bit to make it a lot clearer that your focus is ultimately where everybody's focus is to deliver value, and how you do it is focusing on the accountability, servant leadership, serving the team, serving the organization, serving the product owner, obviously, and, and helping them, them be successful. So you must have been a little bit annoyed, Jim, when they took the word, the phrase, servant leadership out of the scrum guide in 2020. Must have, you know, as you are natural, but, but, but don't worry, it's still kind of conceptually there. We just took that, phrase out to sort of tone down the servant element and emphasize the leadership element.

jim sparks: 7:07

And I think that was good actually, because I honestly, I believe that any good, great leader is going to have some aspect of that servant leadership as part of their leadership tool belt, so to speak. So the wording to me wasn't, it really didn't phase me a bit, because as a leader, that's just who I am. I am a servant leader, you know? So that I can that's just kind of my my personality when it comes to that. So I think any good leader should have some aspect of

Dave West: 7:38

that, yeah, yeah. And the reason the motivation was to reduce the emphasis on sort of like being a team, a person basically doing getting the coffees in, making sure that all the things, because those things are important, I actually sitting here at my desk, I would love somebody to go and get me a cup of coffee. At the moment, where's my scrum master? Sorry. Anyway, the thing is that that isn't the focus as what you described. Is exactly right, Jim. The emphasis is to deliver an amazing product and create an environment for your team to do that, and that is the important stuff. And you know, if you go and get your own coffee, you know, which, which is a little bit disappointed this and this afternoon for me, but that's cool. All right. So, so you sort of fell into scrum master. It sort of fitted your your skills, your style, your you know, what value you want to bring to the world. As it were, you said you worked, you've been working in data, and you worked in a lot of different kinds of organizations. Can you take me through some of those for a moment?

jim sparks: 8:45

So when I started, I was, I was a full time employee with a consultancy agency, but 85% of the work we did was for the US government. So we had a lot of government experience. A lot of working in that environment. Everyone knows that sometimes there can be a little more red tape involved. It can be a little more, yeah, a little more constricting about how you do. So I think that, for me, was a great experience to learn my role, to learn the accountability of a scrum master, to learn how to be a great scrum master, because you had a lot of obstacles. You had a lot of impediments that are not going to be easy to tackle, you know, and so working with that group and working with that team to deliver that was awesome, moving from there into like web application and develop developing mobile apps, working with those teams, working With a medical devices industry, we were doing, going to IoT, Internet of Things. Everything's going to be connected. And we had, at the time, we were kind of given almost free rein. We had, you know, oversight. We had our directors were, you know, we're in there, but we were given the run of, here is, you. Of this thing that here's this Scrum, go take this and create these products. And the teams are awesome. They they really thrived in that environment. So I got to see that I've been through some HR benefits, compensation teams, been through a finances team. It was, it was funny there went in as a new scrum master, and the first thing the the team manager or the development manager, said to me wasn't, hi, hello. How are you? As we don't do Scrum around here, first thing he

Unknown: 10:34

said, you're like, welcome to the team.

jim sparks: 10:38

So my response being who I am. Like, awesome. Why? Because that's my typical response. I'm a five year old, so I'll be like, Hey, why? Well, tell me why. Tell me more. Tell me why. And so that was, that was an adventure, currently working in a cyber security space right now. So that's fun for me. It's interesting to see how we can use, you know, agile, you know, in Scrum, within a cyber environment, because a lot of people don't think you can't do Scrum and cyber, well, you can, you know, it's challenging, but it can be done. So that's for me, it's a lot of fun right now. That's what my biggest challenge right now is, making sure they get it.

Dave West: 11:19

So take you back to that. You went into the organization and they said, we don't do Scrum. Welcome to the team. So you said, why? You then unpacked what he meant by not doing Scrum. And then what did you do next? Did you just sort of okay? So what are you trying to do? What's the outcomes you're achieving? What was, what was your natural response to that jam?

jim sparks: 11:44

I wanted to sit down and talk to the this, the manager who obviously everyone looked up to, and the organization was supportive of agility and supportive of Scrum. It's just this pocket this team was like, ah, we don't do Scrum. And so I wanted to kind of understand what their concerns were and why. You know, if the organization believes in Scrum, the organization is supportive of, you know, Scrum, why is this pocket of it, not a fan of it? Why are they not implementing it, either correctly or at all? So talk to him for a little bit. And they had experienced, you know, the, I guess you could say, you know, the scrum master that comes in and says, You have to scrum buy the book every single letter, and not giving any flexibility for the team to really grow into it and learn how to do it. Well, it was a, you know, a very P's and Q's, you know, your your time boxes are on the dot, and that it just they took it a little too far. So they had experienced some of that, and it didn't work for them. And maybe that's why there wasn't a scrum master on that team at the time, I don't know. But so we started to develop the relationship where, you know, a very collaborative relationship just explaining the value, you know, what you can see, and start to fine tune some of the anti patterns that were there and get them to where they were at least comfortable saying, Yeah, we do Scrum,

Dave West: 13:15

yeah. I think that sometimes some of those, some of those, some of those people can actually ultimately become the biggest advocates. There was a I was working with CRISPR therapeutics, and the person that was doing Scrum the scrum master was awful, is awful, awfully. Bought in. He was really positive. And then he got moved into something else, and he brought this other guy who was PhD, but was also a an ex fireman, and he was so cynical, and it was just hilarious. And now we meet for dinner once a quarter. He's like the biggest advocate. He's gone into a different role in in a different organization, but he brings all of those practices. He's become the biggest advocate. So So sometimes those situations aren't necessarily the worst. Did you get them? Did you, in the end, get them doing at least something that looked a little bit about Scrum? Yes,

jim sparks: 14:14

they, for me, the biggest win was when we went into our daily scrum, people were actually communicating and collaborating, and they were using it for what it was intended for. And they were actually turning their cameras on. So that for me, I went in and I faced, you know, when you go into a room, a virtual room, and you face a wall of boxes with just a little bubble of each person in there versus up, and they were actually communicating and talking, and so that was a win. That was huge. But yes, they they were down that they were headed down that path. That's

Dave West: 14:49

awesome, that's, that's, that's, that's good. You never know. One day one of them might be on a call like this. Um, alright, so you've had a varied sort of over this seven and a half. Half years of a varied set of experiences around Scrum. What would you say the biggest challenge you've faced as a scrum master? Was it the we don't do no damn Scrum? Or was it the that was me trying to do an American accent? I do apologize for you and our listeners. That was awful. I've lived here 2324 years, and I still can't do it. That's almost 25 years anyway, so sorry about that. We aren't doing any Scrum. Or is it something, you know, something else. Tell me a little bit about some of the challenges that you've you've faced.

jim sparks: 15:38

I think for me, one of the biggest challenges is that leading without authority. And one of the kind of the the way, least the way I've noticed the industry leading a little bit is, you know, having a scrum master, or having a manager of some sort take on the accountability of a scrum master, because they have some authority, whether I don't know that I'm 100% on board with that yet or not, I'm still kind of, you know, the jury's still out. But I think that the leading without authority tends to be the biggest challenge for me, because you go into an organization or a team where they're holding on to the old anti patterns that have caused them, you know, heartburn, and you don't have the authority to come in and just say, Okay, we're going to stop all of that craziness right now, and we're going to try something like this. So I would do that like, hey, let's try something new. But I don't have the authority to say we're done with that. So you have to, you have to be able to experience the team, where they are. You have to get in there and meet them, collaborate with them, build that rapport so that they want to follow you, follow you. Create that value, create that vision of why you're headed this direction, to really pull them along with you, whereas if you are a manager or you're trying to push them, you know. So I think that's been the biggest challenge for me, is to kind of pull them with me, versus having authority to push them a direction.

Dave West: 17:07

Yeah. I mean, I I'm 100% I believe that Scrum Masters ultimately have to have the authority. And the reason why is exactly the story that you described. You know, the the most powerful situations are, you know, change. Situations I've ever encountered are ones when the person, you know, the boss, says, Okay, we're not going to do that anymore, then we're going to do this. And if it doesn't work, we're going to learn from it, but we're going to try. And those situations are very hard to do when you have to. And I know you can persuade everybody, and you can influence and all this stuff, but, but, but impediments. And it doesn't have to be as big as that. It could be just one small impediment in when you when the when the team themselves have not got the ability to remove an impediment and and it's obvious that needs to be removed, then it and you not having that authority is incredibly disappointing and really illustrates what the organization thinks of Scrum. Yeah, they trust Scrum, but only to some extent. They've still got the original, you know, hierarchical managers in place. So I'm a big fan of having authority. I don't believe it reduces transparency. I mean, it's a risk, but I think it's a risk that can be easily managed. And I ultimately think that it also, I hate to say it, but it allows you to get paid appropriately. It allows, you know, all of those, all of those things happen as well. Big fan of that, and it is very challenging to over overcome. So, all right, so we're, we're moving towards the end. We try to keep these brief. And Jim, I could, I could ask you questions all all day. I'm sure you've got lots of insights, but, but, all right, so I'm a scrum master listening to this, you know, and maybe I'm new to the role. What advice would you give? Give me

jim sparks: 19:13

the two pieces of advice. I think that there are things that have helped me the most along my career so far is one never stop learning whether you read, whether you're watching a video, whether you're listening to a podcast, whether you're taking a course, whatever it is. Always have that relentless desire to learn and get better and perfect your craft and realize that you're never done. Don't ever get to the I'm there. I've made it point, because you've never made it, and you know you never will make it. So keep that in mind. Learn as you go, try to get better. And the other piece I would offer is build your network. And this is somewhat related to what we just talked about. And while you don't. Have the authority to go out there and maybe put your foot in the ground and say, This is how it is. If you build your network, and you've built that rapport, and you have people that trust you, that have that authority, and can put that flag in the ground and say, this is the way, and you can have some, some element of influence with them that helps you along your journey. So don't be afraid to go external to your team, go outside of your team and build that network. That is how you're really going to be able to support your teams and enable them to run.

Dave West: 20:35

Oh, wow, that's bizarre that you pick those two because they're exactly the two. I would always say, I think that the learning aspect is really interesting and continuous. I personally, but I make sure my lunch hours are always blocked out. And yes, I do eat, but I don't eat for the whole hour. I'm not I'm not having a five course meal and wine, if only I'm not in France or Europe. Unfortunately, I wish anyway, but I have my five course meal. No, I just have my sandwich or whatever, and and then I spend the other time learning. And I have a backlog. I know it's very geeky. Of things that have tickled my fancy, you know, that I've seen but not had time for, like, oh, I there's this article on, you know, flow systems, or flow networks, or whatever I'm interested in that. Oh, I need to really spend some more time in Cynefin and Dave snowden's work, or or whatever it is. And I have this big list that I add to continuously. It's an Evernote. And then I just literally, oh, I can see your list on the wall. That's and then so I pick every, every lunch, I read something, or I listen to something or or whatever, to actually do that. So I really, really appreciate that. And then the network thing is, I mean, that's the reason why Ken scruble was my mentor, right? And for 20 years, we met for, you know, not every month, but we met sometimes very frequently and sometimes less frequent. And he helped me, you know, build an engineering organization at task top. He helped me, you know, Forrester Research, when I was researching this stuff, he was and then it turns out that he wanted to hire me. But so networks are invaluable throughout so and as a scrum master, in particularly in your enablement role, I think it's even more crucial. So great advice. Great advice there, Jim, so thank you for spending the time today. I really, really do appreciate, I think our listeners do as as well. If there's any last words to share, any last words of our listeners,

jim sparks: 22:50

go out there and just do it. Don't just get off your high horse as a scrum master and just, you know, be open to learn and just have fun doing it. That's the biggest thing. Go have fun doing this.

Dave West: 23:01

Oh, that is such good. What you said about that bad experience with Scrum. There's so many that that team had, and then you had to sort of slowly bring them back. The bad experiences are often created by arrogance and hubris, right? We think we know it all because, and the reality is, really don't, and nobody does that. That is the reality. There's, you know, there's no should sing as a truth, but its pursuit is honorable, you know. And I think that that is, oh, my God, that's, that's perhaps the third bit of advice, don't, don't, don't be arrogant, I guess

jim sparks: 23:42

Absolutely. Yeah, get off your high horse and realize, no matter how much you think you know, you don't know it all. And you need to be willing to take that step back. Definitely.

Dave West: 23:53

I think that's really, really good advice. Well, thanks, thanks, Jim. No, I appreciate you. This has been fun. This certainly has so today, I was very lucky to be speaking with Jim sparks from Dayton, Ohio, a scrum master for some seven and a half years, worked all over the place, helping teams become more and more effective. And thank you for listening to today's podcast, scrum.org, community podcast. If you liked what you heard, subscribe, share of your friends. And of course, come back and listen to more. Today, we were hearing all about Scrum, the accountability of Scrum Master. But I'm lucky enough to have a variety of guests talking about everything in the area of professional Scrum Product thinking and of course, agile, thanks, everybody. Scrummar, you.